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#1 Lagge

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Postad 17 juli 2015 - 14:35

Här diskuteras Dwarfs och här i första posten kommer gällande restriktioner ligga


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#2 Atnas

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Postad 18 juli 2015 - 20:57

Postar mitt förslag för Ancestral Grudge här så det inte glöms bort i andra tråden! Istället för att man slår en D6:a där enda resultatet av värde är 5+, så tycker jag man borde se till att regel blir mer jämn mellan matcherna. Den bäst balanserade varianten tycker jag ser ut såhär:

 

Efter deployment (men innan vanguards/scouts) så väljer Dvärgspelaren ut 1 Karaktär och 1 Enhet/Monster som hela Dvärgarmén får Hatred mot. Då kan man göra lite taktiska val, motståndaren behöver inte ta itu med en hel armé som plötsligt får Hatred, effekten är mycket mer balanserad över många matcher och det passar dessutom fluffet mycket bättre :)


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#3 Benny

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Postad 18 juli 2015 - 21:13

Vi kanske kan få reforma på trippla movementen också? Ibland blir det lite väl bökigt.

#4 Raptor

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Postad 18 juli 2015 - 21:26

Håller verkligen inte med.
Dvärgarna ska väl inte vara Snabbare än människor?

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#5 GGH

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Postad 18 juli 2015 - 22:03

Postar mitt förslag för Ancestral Grudge här så det inte glöms bort i andra tråden! Istället för att man slår en D6:a där enda resultatet av värde är 5+, så tycker jag man borde se till att regel blir mer jämn mellan matcherna. Den bäst balanserade varianten tycker jag ser ut såhär:
 
Efter deployment (men innan vanguards/scouts) så väljer Dvärgspelaren ut 1 Karaktär och 1 Enhet/Monster som hela Dvärgarmén får Hatred mot. Då kan man göra lite taktiska val, motståndaren behöver inte ta itu med en hel armé som plötsligt får Hatred, effekten är mycket mer balanserad över många matcher och det passar dessutom fluffet mycket bättre :)


Anser du att Realms of chaos också ska bli mer "jämn" då eller?
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#6 Atnas

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Postad 18 juli 2015 - 23:33

Reign of Chaos är skit, jag har ingen aning om hur man ska balansera det :P Göra effekterna mindre, kanske. Ingenting särskilt som rör Dvärgarna dock- Ancestral Grudge gör armén superkonstig att balansera och poängsätta, för ibland får den total hatred... men för det mesta inte.

 

Med en stabilare effekt (för Dvärgarna ska vara stabila och påltiliga!) så kan man justera dem bättre!

 

 

Ett annat förslag för att göra offensiva Dvärglistor lite rimligare:

 

Talisman Rune

 

Rune of Brotherhood

Lets the character deploy with Miners or Rangers

 

 

Med den gamla runan så kan man få ut karaktärer till scoutande och ambushande enheter, då jäklar blir det lite fart i dem :)


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#7 PeZa

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Postad 19 juli 2015 - 00:00

Jag gillar de förslagna ändringarna från 9th-gruppen. Gör om signaturspellsen till anvil så att den blir spelbar! 1 magic missile, 1 movementspell och en combatbuff.

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#8 Montegue

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Postad 19 juli 2015 - 02:38

If they decide to overhaul the books, we can probably benefit from the following - 

M4. Just do it. M3 is a holdover from GW's bad design choices, and there's no reason for dwarfs to not have access to basic movement rate. yeah, they are short. They aren't so short they can't keep up with a human regiment. This way you don't have to do a triple march, and you can keep the dwarfs as dogged marchers into battle. 

The other problems with our book is a lack of participation in the magic phase and a lack of unit type variety. Put monstrous cavalry in rare and useful cavalry in special and you'll have a real choice against war machine play, especially if you give Dwarfs access to a couple of magic lores and a Rune lore. From there, you can add the Anvil of Doom as an in-unit Chariot like the Cauldron of Blood to make it worthwhile. 

Ancestral Grudge is too spikey. I think it should 1) require a Dwarf Lord in the army and 2) Hate 1d3 Enemy units and your General hates their general. 

Edit - 

Being pretty active on Bugmans, I know there were a few bits of disappointment in the 8th edition book. 

- Brotherhood was already mentioned above. 

- The Master Rune of Kragg the Grimm was a real loss. It's fun to make a big two handed rune axe, and that went away. Our decreased access to bonus strength (35 points for +1S magic weapon..) gets really annoying. 

- The ancestral heirlooms are largely bleh, and the Banner of Lost Holds needs to be clarified as to who can bear it.

- It would be nice to have the rules (in general or in specific) talk about how to resolve a Stand And Shoot reaction with a template weapon like a Gyro steam gun. 

- The Slayer Death Blow rule caused a huge amount of rules conflict on the Dwarf boards. Having a good answer would be nice. 

 



#9 Itake

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Postad 19 juli 2015 - 12:07

Först av allt måste jag verkliga berömma hela projektet, sjukt bra initativ! Ser fram emot detta betydligt mer än AoS.

 

Tror väl att de flesta som spelar med/mot dvärgar vill se lite mer variety än olika former av castling, och då behövs något sorts movement-fix. Tycker Montegues idé om M4 låter bäst, tillsammans med gyrocopters (som redan funkar väldigt bra) och någon sorts monstrous cavalry/golem unit, men det kanske blir svårt att lägga till helt nya units (även om man inte längre måste vara bunden av GW:s sortiment). Håller med om, Rune of Brotherhood, Kragg the Grim-runan, och Ancestral Grudge också. Förslaget ovan om att få välja 1 char och 1 unit låter väldigt bra!

 

Även med Rune of the Brotherhood skulle Miners behöva något som gör dem lite snabbare (kanske trippel movement första rundan de kommer in eller något?).

 

Vad gäller magi, skulle man inte kunna ge Runesmiths/Runelords bound spells likt warrior priests? Man skulle ju kunna flytta de spellsen som finns på Anvil i dagsläget till Runesmiths och ge dem regler likt Warrior Priests. Så kan man antingen komma på nya spells för Anvil, eller använda de som finns för Ancestor Runes i Storm of Magic.

 

Vore verkligen kul om något kunde göras för Slayers också! Kanske något som gör de snäppet vassare i CC (t ex Frenzy?) eller återinföra Wards of Grimnir och Master Rune of Grimnir från gamla 6th ed slayers listan.

 

Kanoner behöver ju nerfas på något sätt, även om man skulle göra monster rent bättre generellt (nån sorts mekanism mot steadfast osv). Den kan ju egentligen fungera som en bolt thrower, finns ju runor som gör den väldigt träffsäker även om man kör med BS shooting. Då vore det också kul om Master Engineer hade bättre BS än en alv-champion, och man fick tillbaka möjligheten att köpa vanliga engineers som unit champions.



#10 Althalus89

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Postad 19 juli 2015 - 17:06

Finns en sak jag stör mig på regelmässigt (Förutom allas vår kära Anvil)
Och det är GWs weird val att Hammerers ska kunna ta sköldar...det ger alltså 1 mer armor mot skytte och magi.
De kan ju inte ens om man vill använda handvapen och sköld och det skulle inte vara värt det heller även om man fick välja.
Så jag skulle hellre se se Hammerers 1 poäng dyrare men med Gromril armor.

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#11 Arachnomen

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 01:08

Would it not be great if we could get Slayers as a Core choice if we take Ungrim as our General or perhaps one core Slayer unit per Daemonslayer in the army?

Maybe one could get an overall armybuff if your army contains no blackpowder? (like thunderers, cannons, Organ gun, iron drakes, brimstone gun etc)

As it has been memtioned before, but since it could use some more repeating:
The Rune of Brotherhood, the Kragg-rune (size does matter!) and if Miners got a Deepstrike abillity instead of their Ambush would be great!
Rangers can keep their Ambush while the Minersarna make their way and assault from below the ground.

And maybe make the Brimstone weapon somehow slightly on par with the Steamgun?

#12 Hoffa

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 06:48

*Notices the new, english only rule*

 

Montegues suggestions makes a lot of sense.

 

Anvil as of now is unplayable, need to re written from scratch. (Has there been some suggestion about this that I have missed).

 

Movement needs to be addressed. A switch to M4 would do it but I think I still prefer M3 with moving 3xM on marching. I think Dwarfs should be slow, its part of their flavour and M3 feels ok for charging. The problem has been that M3 units easily got stranded (after getting diverted/wiping out the enemy) with no way of rejoining the battle. Another problem with M3 is that M5 is enough to play avoidance. Not being able to catch fast cav is ok. Not being able to engage ranked elven infantry units is not.  I think the march 3xM change addresses these problems while retaining the dwarf flavour. 

 

Regarding runes I have too requested the brother hood rune to be brought back, it allows dwarfs to be a bit more aggressive. Also I think that the runed great weapon (i.e. Kragg the grim) should be brought back and also Dwarfs need a bit better access to extra strength. In the 8:ed book GW actually added some interesting weapon runes only to then restrict the access to strength buffs making a lot of the new runes unusable. Rune of cleaving needs to be rewritten. I would suggest to change it back to how it was. (+1s for 20p or so, can be taken multiple times). The ap and killing blow effects could be moved to a new rune. Perhaps (AP, killing blow, heroic killing blow <-- really expensive)  

 

Miners really are to slow to do anything. They only worked in the old book due to the old anvil charge (and this should not be brought back, removing all the 'magic phase charges' was a good idea by GW.) I don't think extra move is going to help them. Ambush rule simply does not work for most infantry units, this is a problem with the ambush rule and not with the units that has it.

 

Rune smiths are good the way they are but runelords need something to make them interesting, they are not really worth their points atm.

 

All slayers needs some kind of buff, they die to easy (a ward perhaps?) Also I want champion and character slayers to have some rule that makes them better against monstrous inf/monstrous beasts. In what world does it make sense that a TROLL slayer actually has no bonuses what so ever when fighting trolls?.  Also, the horrible mess that is the deathblow rule needs to be cleaned up, it is a  flavourful idea, problem is that it was written by some one that did not understand the rules for casualty removal. 

 

Gyrokopters.  The steam gun is to good, it could use a nerf of some kind  (Change to S2 perhaps?) . On the other hand the brimestone gun is terrible, significant buff needed. (No penalty for multiple shoots and 2D3 shots might be a start)

 

 

 

Finally the big one.
Cannons. There are a lot of requests to nerf cannons and in one way I agree. We have all these nice monsters that rarely gets used due to cannons being so effective against them. This needs to be addressed. On the other hand cannons (and to a lesser degree other wm) are the only tools the dwarf have for dealing with fast, small units. It is very easy for this kind of units to avoid the big blocks, kill all the support units and then just gang up on one big block at a time. Cannons (and in a lesser degree other wm) are used to deal with this threat, both directly by shooting it to bits but more important indirectly by creating "no go" areas on the board.  A nerf to cannons there for needs to be compensated by some significant buff elsewhere to help with the board control problem.


Slår så dåligt att spelaren på bordet bredvid förlorar matchen.


#13 buffy

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 09:16

I agree with Atnas on Ancestral Grudge. The Anvil need some changes ofc. I like the faster march insted of making them M4 cus dwarfs should be have lower momvent. I also like to make runepriest have some boundspells but not sure if that works with the fluff.

 

I would like to give slayers mr2 and 6+ ward aginst shooting. 

 

Gyros, organ gun and cannons are to good. Cannons should get some fix so they do less damage but are less radnom for all teams. Not sure how to fix organ gun. If you make the steamgun str2 I think gyros would be ok.

 

I think it would be ok if dwarfs would get a deathroller unit. You don´t need to convert anything cus it´s a bloodbowl model. I am not sure what rules it would have but need to me a lot less random then in bloodbowl.


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#14 Hoffa

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 10:59

Oh I forgot. Ancestral grudge should be modified, Atnas solution looks good. Out of the book its a horrible horrible rule. Either AG does nothing important or it provides a huge advantage and this is decided on a single roll after deployment.

 

Nerfing Organ guns presents the same problem as nerfing cannons. The organ gun is the only answer the dwarfs have to things like fast cav, flying cavalry and so on. These units can easily avoid and dance out of the charge arch of the big blocks and the bs shooting. I have tried playing with out organ guns or just lost my organ gun on turn 1 and these games are hopeless. As a dwarf player one just get swarmed by opposing warmachine hunters and redirectors. The wm gets killed, the big blocks gets diverted and the support units gets destroyed. Then the opponents starts ganging up on an destroying one big block at a time while the other blocks keeps getting diverted. 

 

Also there is the problem of killing the last few survivors of a unit in order to get the points. The organ gun is the only thing that reliably can do this. (Here I thing the correct fix is to bring back vp for depleted units).

 

Fixing the dwarf wm is not an easy thing. For the empire the WM is one tool among many but for the Dwarf the wm is what makes up for the army's lack of mobility. The WM solves problems that no other unit can solve.

 

Suggestion: One way to make the dwarfs less dependent on the WM is to bring back the old 6:th rules for dwarf handguns. In the first Dwarf army book for 6:th edition Dwarf handguns were not move or fire. Bringing back this would make Dwarfs less dependent on using WM for the anti chaff role.


Slår så dåligt att spelaren på bordet bredvid förlorar matchen.


#15 GGH

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 11:49

Reign of Chaos är skit, jag har ingen aning om hur man ska balansera det :P Göra effekterna mindre, kanske. Ingenting särskilt som rör Dvärgarna dock- Ancestral Grudge gör armén superkonstig att balansera och poängsätta, för ibland får den total hatred... men för det mesta inte.

 

Med en stabilare effekt (för Dvärgarna ska vara stabila och påltiliga!) så kan man justera dem bättre!

 

 

Ett annat förslag för att göra offensiva Dvärglistor lite rimligare:

 

Talisman Rune

 

Rune of Brotherhood

Lets the character deploy with Miners or Rangers

 

 

Med den gamla runan så kan man få ut karaktärer till scoutande och ambushande enheter, då jäklar blir det lite fart i dem :)

My opinions is that both of the tables should be removed due to the flexibility (the suggested AG) it provides and the diffuculty to actually restrict it with points.

An AG such as you suggest would be OP due to the impact it will have on combat oriented armies. Let's take Daemons, you'll choose the Greater Daemons every game and probably the anvil (plague bearers) or the most potent combat oriented unit in the opposing player's list. Dwarves aren't lousy fighters, you rarely see them without GW (you strike last anyway, why not smack hard?) and a few ranks to sustain losses and enable step-up. Not only does hatred rip apart the GD and the unit but the intimidation this represents probably makes the daemon player wary of what combats he can afford to engage in. Thus giving the dwarf player enough time to just soften up the table with cannons, crossbow bolts and stonethrowers. Look at the daemons with their Locus'. How can it actually be right to argument that the dwarves should have an fluffy-rule that gives them an Locus of wrath (cost: 75pts for a Herald of Khrone) for free on every units and character in their army against 1 character and 1 unit on the opposing players list? Heck, that sounds totally crazy to me! Even if AG is a random table that sometimes gives dwarf armies a powerful advantage (Seething Score to Settle) I hope that the work of the development team will remove it entirely and rework the rest.


Gabriel GH

#16 buffy

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 11:59

The problem with organ gun is not that it kills fast cav or other small stuff. The problem is that it kills almost everyting.


David "Dangerous" D

#17 Hoffa

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 14:17

Well yes that is a bit of a problem and a constant issue with Dwarfs. Allowing thunders to move and fire will make this issue a bit better but not solve all problems (handguns are still not quick to fire). A bs 4 or better organ gun is basically the only Dwarf unit capable of dealing with annoying skirmishers in general and flying cavalry in particular. Flying cav is a nightmare. It stays out of fire arcs. If you are lucky you might get one round of shooting at long range and then you hit on sixes.

 

Flying monsters are the same nightmare, They can easily dodge the charge arcs of the big blocks and the characters that could kill them in combat. This is the main issue with Dwarfs they are dependent on their WM for bord control. If the WM are nerfed this makes Dwarfs weaker in an area were they are already at a disadvantage. If the WM are nerfed then something needs to be added to compensate for the loss of bord control. Actually bringing back the old anvil charge would solve this as the ability to turn and then charge would make it much riskier for the opponent to just dance around the dwarf blocks. I'm just not sure I want this to come back, the magic phase charging were one of the worst things of 7:th edition. 


Slår så dåligt att spelaren på bordet bredvid förlorar matchen.


#18 Screamer

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 15:11

Ancestral grudge: before deployment, roll a die.
1: your general re roll all to hit and to wound against the enemy's general in close combat.
2-3: Choose a character, that character re rolls all to hit and to wound against one enemy character in close combat.
4: your general and his chosen bodyguard (the unit he start the game in) re roll all to hit and to wound rolls against the enemy's general and any unit he has joined. If you're general leaves his unit, the unit looses this special rule.
5-6: same as above, but chose one of your characters and one of the opponents characters.

#19 Sealed

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 15:43

I´ve been thinking about the dwarfs, and one thing to make them better in the movement phase could be to let them make a swift reform before marching and charging.

That would make alot for them, also to let them make a swift reform to shoot might help them enough?



#20 BjörnW

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 15:58

@Sealed

That seems too strong and takes away of the normal movementhammer. M4 is the cleanest fix imo. May even be too strong given that the dwarf infantry is really solid overall except for the m3.




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