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Warriors Of Chaos


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#1 Lagge

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Postad 17 juli 2015 - 14:33

Här diskuteras Warriors of Chaos och här i första posten kommer gällande restriktioner ligga


Johan Lagmo
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#2 mungojerrie

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 09:35

Ok. I have been giving this alot of thought.

Up in points = mot on characters, disc of tzeentch, crushers, uncertain on chariots,
Down in points = dragon ogres (or give t5), chaos knights, chaos marauders, chaos warriors, chaos giant, chaos spawn (or give random move 3d6), slaughterbrute, vortex beast, hellstriders, Sorcerer lord, exalted hero base cost, Sorcerer base cost. Their high base cost funnels the build into max kitted characters. Sort their lower base cost by upping the cost of upgrades like daemonic mount, disc of tzeentch, mark of tzeentch.

The problem with the chaos book according to me in terms of power are multiple flying monsters/characters. The chimera is well costed but the book suffers from poor internal balance which streamlines the viable builds. The problem with characters and warriors is, if any, mark of tzeentch. Mark of nurgle on dp should also cost more. The dp is otherwise well costed according to me. Stubborn instead of unbreakable should fix the Prince.

Allow exalted heroes to take lance.

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#3 buffy

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 09:41

I would like to make forsakens a bit better. Make it so they don´t have any bad results on combat and balance thre marks out a bit. Mayne make them a bit cheaper to.


David "Dangerous" D

#4 Keef

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 10:55

I think the forsaken should stay the same, including the ASL result. Just lower the point cost. Perhaps make a Forsaken "upgrade" for fighty heroes so that they get M6 and the same special rules. Then as a downside make them unable to take magic items (but still gifts and mundane gear) or something. Just for fun =)

 

Agree that base pts on chars should be lower and upgrades more expensive, this should result in more variation in characters.



#5 Maelstorm

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 11:28

Points on warriors and chosen are somewhat ludacris when taking marks and equipment. I would say lessen the base cost on both with 1-2 pts and look up point values on equip and marks.


"He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight"
- Sun Tzu, Art of War
 
"Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory."
- General Patton

"Ward or feed!"
- Oscar Lagnelöv




 

#6 Hoffa

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 11:30

Just get rid of the unkillable characters, re write the mark of tzeentch. Perhaps just add that the ward can not be better than 4+  A 3+ ward should be super rare and super expensive (if it should exist in the game at all) and not easily available like it is for WoC.


Slår så dåligt att spelaren på bordet bredvid förlorar matchen.


#7 Kane

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 17:36

I want: 

 

Dragon ogres to have musicians.

 

Another Mark of Tzeentch. The same as in 6th ed book, Hordes of Chaos.

 

Faster spawns.

 

Cheaper base cost of chaos warriors.

 

Cheaper marauders. I think of either making the weapon options cheaper, or include LA and/or shield in their basecost.  And an ability to take a magical standard. 

 

Tzeentch magic should be flaming.



#8 BjörnW

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 20:04

 
Another Mark of Tzeentch. The same as in 6th ed book, Hordes of Chaos.


What was it before?

#9 Kane

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Postad 20 juli 2015 - 20:16

 

 
Another Mark of Tzeentch. The same as in 6th ed book, Hordes of Chaos.


What was it before?

 

 

In Hordes of Chaos sorcerers could not have Mark of Tzeentch. Instead it was for Chaos Lords and exalted heroes only. They became lvl4/lvl2 wizards for a cost of 140/70 points.   They became warrior wizards.  Epic awesomeness!



#10 Sir_Joker

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Postad 21 juli 2015 - 23:17

I really did like the old mark of tzeentch and do have to agree that they just shouldn't have access to 3+ ward saved without weakspot. I would like to see the 3+ ward save against shooting included which they did have before though.

Fixing point costs on chaos warriors / exalted is difficult because they do have very impressive stats. Nevertheless they seem to be too expensive. The demon prince has to be reworked points wise - upgrades should cost a lot more but still be possible (like fielding a star dragon - you are able to, but have to pay the price).

Dragon Ogres desperately need a buff too.

On a personal note: I really would like to go back to 6th edition where a chaos player was able (under certain limitations) to field units out of other chaos armies (beastmen, hordes of chaos, demons). It gave the armies a unique touch and very unique possibilities. The separation did leave behind a huge gap - demons, warriors and beastman lack certain troop types which is due to the allocation of chaotic units in one of the 3 army books without the possibility to access them with other chaotic armies.

Philip

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#11 Hoffa

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Postad 22 juli 2015 - 07:17

Chaos warriors are impressive enough for their points if they manage to make it into combat. My elite CC Dwarfs do not want to get anywhere near a Chaos warriors unit unless it has been softened up by shooting first. 

 

I think the problem here is the same as with other expensive CC infantry, it is very hard to get it into a meaningful combat due to diverting being so effective and so cheap.  It is not a per unit fix, it is a problem with the rules in general that the moment is under costed making slow units to expensive and fast units to cheap.  Fix is to either make diverting less effective or to recost all fast units to properly reflect their value.


Slår så dåligt att spelaren på bordet bredvid förlorar matchen.


#12 Kane

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Postad 22 juli 2015 - 08:10

Chaos warriors are absolute beasts in HtH. But unless they get there they are a massive pointsink right now.

#13 Foxen

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Postad 22 juli 2015 - 08:44

3++ is woc's thing. Must be some way to balance without removing.

The game is more interesting when armies have different strengths and weaknesses.

// Elias Roos
 
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WoC, TK, OnG


#14 Noxer

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Postad 22 juli 2015 - 10:48

3++ is woc's thing. Must be some way to balance without removing.

The game is more interesting when armies have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

Yeah, but does a 3+ rerollable 1s ward save really have a weakness? My usual strategy is just to ignore it since I won't be able to kill it anyway.

 

One way to get through a ward save would be a massive amount of crappy attacks. But when the lord is at toughness 4 or 5, and have a 1+ armor save as well, it is insane. The only option is a huge amount of high strength attacks, and don't we all wish we always had that...


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#15 Hoffa

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Postad 22 juli 2015 - 11:22

I do not think of 3+ as a WoC thing. It was added in the 7:th ed book and then it was only available through one (under priced) magic item. I still think it adds nothing good to the game. I could be ok with WoC having an expensive (60p +) magic item that provides a 3+ but that should be the limit. Also remove everything that allows for wards to be re rolled.


Slår så dåligt att spelaren på bordet bredvid förlorar matchen.


#16 Foxen

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Postad 22 juli 2015 - 23:29

3++ is woc's thing. Must be some way to balance without removing.
The game is more interesting when armies have different strengths and weaknesses.

 
Yeah, but does a 3+ rerollable 1s ward save really have a weakness? My usual strategy is just to ignore it since I won't be able to kill it anyway.
 
One way to get through a ward save would be a massive amount of crappy attacks. But when the lord is at toughness 4 or 5, and have a 1+ armor save as well, it is insane. The only option is a huge amount of high strength attacks, and don't we all wish we always had that...

Who said anything about 3++ reroll 1s?
Third eye could/should be removed.

Woc's characters arent very reliable in combat. They might be hard to kill but their ability to reliably deal damage over a few rounds are limited with no re-rolls. That's how you get them.

// Elias Roos
 
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WoC, TK, OnG


#17 Sir_Joker

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Postad 23 juli 2015 - 08:28

Yeah, but does a 3+ rerollable 1s ward save really have a weakness? My usual strategy is just to ignore it since I won't be able to kill it anyway.

I think regular 3+ ward saves on a model with a good armor save is something that should not be included. I really liked the ward saves with a weak spot though - only being able to use it against non magical wounds or only against ranged attacks enabled interesting play patterns. A 3+ ward save (probably with rerollable 1's) does only provide one thing: frustration.

As stated before the marks should be reworked altogether.

My suggestion would be:

Khorne - characters: Frenzy + MR 2
Khorne - troops: Frenzy

Tzeentch - characters (only available for generals and exalted heroes): magical flaming attacks (flames of Tzeentch) + General gets wizard level 4 (140pts) , Exalted Hero gets wizard level 2 (70 pts) --> like in the old book
Tzeentch - troops: unit may channel + magical flaming attacks (flames of Tzeentch)

Nurgle - character: ASL in base contact + -1 to hit
Nurgle - troops: -1 to hit

Slaanesh - character: ASF + armor piercing + immune to psychology with the ability to flee
Slaanesh - troops: armor piercing + immune to psychology with the ability to flee

Undivided chaos: If your army general does not have a mark you may field units with different marks. Furthermore character models with no mark may join any unit with a mark otherwise only characters with the same mark as the unit may join them.

Undivided chaos troops: Troops with the undivided chaos mark may reroll break and psychology tests even if they don't are in range of the battle standard bearer. Undivided troops may be fielded regardless of the mark of your army's general.

This is just a suggestion - my thought process was that each mark should give a unique effect in line with the patron gods fluff and that every effect should be desirable so that in the end there is no clear "best" mark. Point costs would have to be determined though.

Feedback?

Philip

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#18 Hoffa

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Postad 23 juli 2015 - 11:33

Chaos warriors are absolute beasts in HtH. But unless they get there they are a massive pointsink right now.

 

I take it you agree that this is a problem for all m4 and lower elite infantry?

 

 

 

Foxen: Woc's characters arent very reliable in combat. They might be hard to kill but their ability to reliably deal damage over a few rounds are limited with no re-rolls. That's how you get them.

 

WoC characters are fine, rerolls are undercosted and to easily available to some books. 


Slår så dåligt att spelaren på bordet bredvid förlorar matchen.


#19 Foxen

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Postad 23 juli 2015 - 11:50

"WoC characters are fine, rerolls are undercosted and to easily available to some books."

Yes they are fine atm because they can get good wardsaves.

// Elias Roos
 
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#20 Mad 'At

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Postad 24 juli 2015 - 20:27

The WoC Daemons Prince is now changed to stubborn and ItP instead of unbreakable. Will it have instability like all other daemons (but with stubborn)?


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